With article about the Tim Holt "Cowboy Superhero" persona, ( Red Mask,2/2/'08,) I am slowly getting the idea that Don has mentioned repeatedly in articles about such"Cowboy Superheroes" as Gun Master, and, the original Ghost Rider, that the idea of a "cowboy as a superhero" did not originate with Charlton's Gun Master, or even the Lone Ranger. But apparently an idea that began sometime after the original creation of the superhero.
This is a main reason I've got the 'toonopedia bookmarked. To not only learn about characters I've already heard about, but also to learn about characters I haven't heard about before Don wrote about them, and, as well as more about the various 'toon mediums as well.
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Posted by: Don Markstein
Posted on: 2008-02-05 at 07:06:35 AM
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Thanks, Chuck. I'm glad you like it when I do obscuros, because there are an awful lot of them still to do.
But I'm sorry if I gave an impression that "superhero-style" western heroes started after the creation of the superhero, because they didn't — unless you count early characters with secret identities, such as The Scarlet Pimpernel, as superhero prototypes.
The Lone Ranger started on radio five years before Superman, who is generally regarded as the first superhero (tho the word was applied to some comics and pulp characters, not all of whom had secret identities, before he came along). Zorro was well established long before that. And a bunch of western guys who did it before Superman aren't even remembered today.
There's something about a guy performing heroic deeds while hiding his true identity, that's been tickling the imagination for a long time. Putting a gaudy costume on him, and giving him super powers, was an innovation, but not a crucial one. Western heroes were a viable fictional form even before they became historical fiction, back when they were contemporary, and where you have fictional heroes, you find an occasional one who won't reveal who he really is.
So -- while it's true that the secret identity guys found their greatest expression in comic books, with the '40s superhero fad having set the pattern -- they were around before that. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
Quack, Don
But I'm sorry if I gave an impression that "superhero-style" western heroes started after the creation of the superhero, because they didn't — unless you count early characters with secret identities, such as The Scarlet Pimpernel, as superhero prototypes.
The Lone Ranger started on radio five years before Superman, who is generally regarded as the first superhero (tho the word was applied to some comics and pulp characters, not all of whom had secret identities, before he came along). Zorro was well established long before that. And a bunch of western guys who did it before Superman aren't even remembered today.
There's something about a guy performing heroic deeds while hiding his true identity, that's been tickling the imagination for a long time. Putting a gaudy costume on him, and giving him super powers, was an innovation, but not a crucial one. Western heroes were a viable fictional form even before they became historical fiction, back when they were contemporary, and where you have fictional heroes, you find an occasional one who won't reveal who he really is.
So -- while it's true that the secret identity guys found their greatest expression in comic books, with the '40s superhero fad having set the pattern -- they were around before that. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
Quack, Don
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Posted by: Chuck Taine
Posted on: 2008-02-05 at 09:38:17 AM
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Don;
I probably misunderstood you, in re "cowboy superheroes." In fact, even though he wasn't an American cowboy per se, wouldn't Zorro. in the original short story, be the first of this specific genre? (The Cowboy Superhero.)
As for the Scarlet Pimpernel wouldn't he be better termed more a Robin Hood type of character?
Quack back at you.
I probably misunderstood you, in re "cowboy superheroes." In fact, even though he wasn't an American cowboy per se, wouldn't Zorro. in the original short story, be the first of this specific genre? (The Cowboy Superhero.)
As for the Scarlet Pimpernel wouldn't he be better termed more a Robin Hood type of character?
Quack back at you.
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Posted by: Don Markstein
Posted on: 2008-02-06 at 05:22:54 AM
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I doubt Zorro was the first western hero with a secret identity, whether or not he fit the mold of a typical western. Also, I'm not sure where The Scarlet Pimpernel falls in the taxonomy of heroes, but he did wear a mask and operate under a phoney name. But the dashing hero with the wimpy secret identity has been a staple of storytelling since long before Superman.
By the way, reading The Scarlet Pimpernel in my youth wasn't a very rewarding experience. I guess 19th century readers related better to the prose style, which I found stilted. The original Zorro, on the other hand, remains a delight. I read it as a novel, not a short story -- not sure whether it was expanded from a short story, but it read smoothly in novel form.
I read it in a 1960s-or-so paperback published by Dell, titled The Mark of Zorro, which gave evidence of being a retitled version of the original, called The Curse of Capistrano. I liked it so much, many years later, I used it as bedtime reading with my kids, and it went over with them, too.
I think the older one was about 10 at the time. She picked up on the clues, and just knew Zorro was really Don Diego, and ya gotta get 'em young for that to still be a surprise. There was a near-unmasking in a later chapter, which brought screams of anguish. Fortunately, the real unmasking came in the following night's reading, and Mom joined us so she could share it with them. They loved it!
Much more recently, I read a Zorro novel by Isabel Allende. The kids are now too old to sit still while I read to them, and the grandkids aren't over here steadily enough for any ambitious reading projects, or I'd read that one aloud too. It covered every schtick that's been grafted onto the character since the beginning, and added some of its own. I had to laugh when Don Diego taught some children a little song he'd heard about Zorro -- the actual lyrics weren't used, but the description made it obvious it was the theme song to the 1950s Disney TV show -- which, by the way, I loved as a kid and still enjoy on the rare occasions I get to see it again.
If Zorro had only started in cartoons, I'd write him up here. Maybe I will anyway. The TV animation wasn't so great, but I sure do like the Alex Toth version!
Quack, Don
By the way, reading The Scarlet Pimpernel in my youth wasn't a very rewarding experience. I guess 19th century readers related better to the prose style, which I found stilted. The original Zorro, on the other hand, remains a delight. I read it as a novel, not a short story -- not sure whether it was expanded from a short story, but it read smoothly in novel form.
I read it in a 1960s-or-so paperback published by Dell, titled The Mark of Zorro, which gave evidence of being a retitled version of the original, called The Curse of Capistrano. I liked it so much, many years later, I used it as bedtime reading with my kids, and it went over with them, too.
I think the older one was about 10 at the time. She picked up on the clues, and just knew Zorro was really Don Diego, and ya gotta get 'em young for that to still be a surprise. There was a near-unmasking in a later chapter, which brought screams of anguish. Fortunately, the real unmasking came in the following night's reading, and Mom joined us so she could share it with them. They loved it!
Much more recently, I read a Zorro novel by Isabel Allende. The kids are now too old to sit still while I read to them, and the grandkids aren't over here steadily enough for any ambitious reading projects, or I'd read that one aloud too. It covered every schtick that's been grafted onto the character since the beginning, and added some of its own. I had to laugh when Don Diego taught some children a little song he'd heard about Zorro -- the actual lyrics weren't used, but the description made it obvious it was the theme song to the 1950s Disney TV show -- which, by the way, I loved as a kid and still enjoy on the rare occasions I get to see it again.
If Zorro had only started in cartoons, I'd write him up here. Maybe I will anyway. The TV animation wasn't so great, but I sure do like the Alex Toth version!
Quack, Don
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Posted by: Chuck Taine
Posted on: 2008-02-06 at 06:29:19 AM
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Don;
I read Isabel Allende's interpretation of Zorro's backstory as well, and, enjoyed it. I'm glad Zorro, Inc. (the copyright holder of the character,) had her do it. To me, it brought forward things that were missing in Zorro's story that no one, Johnston McCully (SP?), and, all authors since, be they screen writers, comic writers, or, etc., didn't touch on.
It even made him politically correct!
Please do an article on him, even though he is more famous as a "movie hero," than a 'toon. You pointed out yourself, that he has has a few animated series, and, there was a newspaper strip that featured him as well.
(Alex Toth did artwork for Zorro? Was that newspaper, comics, or, animation? )
I read Isabel Allende's interpretation of Zorro's backstory as well, and, enjoyed it. I'm glad Zorro, Inc. (the copyright holder of the character,) had her do it. To me, it brought forward things that were missing in Zorro's story that no one, Johnston McCully (SP?), and, all authors since, be they screen writers, comic writers, or, etc., didn't touch on.
It even made him politically correct!
Please do an article on him, even though he is more famous as a "movie hero," than a 'toon. You pointed out yourself, that he has has a few animated series, and, there was a newspaper strip that featured him as well.
(Alex Toth did artwork for Zorro? Was that newspaper, comics, or, animation? )
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Posted by: Don Markstein
Posted on: 2008-02-07 at 07:05:00 AM
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Things others didn't touch on -- y'mean, like his mother having been raised by wolves? I don't think that was ever part of his back-story before.
I said MAYBE I'd write him up anyway. Sometimes non-toon characters can have enough of a presence in cartoons to where their actual origin is unimportant. The classic example is Buck Rogers, who might as well have started in the comic strip, for all the impact his earlier appearance in pulp magazines had on him. But I think I crossed a line of some sort when I wrote up Tarzan, who is not primarily a cartoon character, but I decided he'd been done in cartoon form enough for that aspect of him alone to make a good article.
Naybe Zorro is the same way. Maybe The Lone Ranger (newspaper comic, comic book, satmorn cartoon) is, too. Maybe even The Shadow. But let's not get too far afield.
I knew about the Zorro newspaper strip, but it had slipped my mind. I'll take it into account if I finally do decide to do him.
Alex Toth drew the Dell comic book adaptations of the 1950s TV show. There were earlier Dell adaptations, but they were of movie versions. The early ones weren't outstandingly good, but man, that Toth could really put across a story!
Quack, Don
I said MAYBE I'd write him up anyway. Sometimes non-toon characters can have enough of a presence in cartoons to where their actual origin is unimportant. The classic example is Buck Rogers, who might as well have started in the comic strip, for all the impact his earlier appearance in pulp magazines had on him. But I think I crossed a line of some sort when I wrote up Tarzan, who is not primarily a cartoon character, but I decided he'd been done in cartoon form enough for that aspect of him alone to make a good article.
Naybe Zorro is the same way. Maybe The Lone Ranger (newspaper comic, comic book, satmorn cartoon) is, too. Maybe even The Shadow. But let's not get too far afield.
I knew about the Zorro newspaper strip, but it had slipped my mind. I'll take it into account if I finally do decide to do him.
Alex Toth drew the Dell comic book adaptations of the 1950s TV show. There were earlier Dell adaptations, but they were of movie versions. The early ones weren't outstandingly good, but man, that Toth could really put across a story!
Quack, Don
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Posted by: Chuck Taine
Posted on: 2008-02-07 at 09:00:45 AM
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So, Alex Toth drew the comic adaptations of the Disney TV show. Must have "easy" to draw Don Williams, and, etc. I should have thought that it couldn't have been any of the animated adaptations, especially since the first animated version I can think of was produced by the well regarded Filmation Associates.
Although I was to young for comics when Toth originally did the artwork for Dell,
I think I might have seen an issue or two later in life, but then I would'nt have appreciated then either. Now, I would.
Although I was to young for comics when Toth originally did the artwork for Dell,
I think I might have seen an issue or two later in life, but then I would'nt have appreciated then either. Now, I would.
